SILVER 4-TANGA - Double Counter stamped. ??
An eBay dealer in UK
listed a fake coin for $2500. Claimed he had a BM
identification. The Auction was stopped when informed it was fake, but
seller still claimed it was real. BM sent me E-mail confirming that in
their opinion it is modern fake.
Now listed in ForgeryNetwork #1504
Same coin is
listed within a month again on eBay Auction by another UK seller
for e150. Seller stops Auction when Informed. I email first seller
who says he returned it to supplier, 2nd eBay seller said he got it
from trusted supplier. 2nd seller stopped 3 other auctions early
around same time. One of which a solidus was
posted on Monetat-L as
Fake. Didn't reply if it was same supplier.
Dutch Occupation of Portuguese Ceylon. c,1645
ULTRA RARE Double C/stamped. SILVER TANGA
ebay Item number: 2212206267
Bidding has ended for this item
The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale.
Starting bid: US $2,500.00
Ended: Dec-26-03 13:15:55 PST
History: 0 bids
Location: England, United Kingdom
Seller information
dragonbrit
Feedback rating: 498
Positive feedback: 99.4%
Registered May-19-99 in United Kingdom
A QUITE SUPERB AND ULTRA RARE PORTUGUESE
(DUTCH OCCUPATION) COUNTER-STAMPED SILVER
4 TANGA OF CEYLON (Sri Lanka)
Struck 1642-1649
An amazing coin. (Made in far away Ceylon during the same time period
as The English Civil War and the execution of Charles I).This 4 Tanga
piece is an "ultra" early coin of great rarity and interest to both
Portuguese AND Dutch collectors.
This is one of only perhaps a small handful l of surviving examples of
this coin. Originally struck in about 1645 for use in the then "far
flung" Portuguese colony of Ceylon,(modern day Sri Lanka). The coin was
later (post 1655) Counter-stamped (twice in this case) with the Dutch
Occupation VOC and VO counter-stamps.This large silver(28mm)undated
type is by far the rarest of a small number of varieties.
Condition is undoubtedly at least EF for this issue and type. The coin
has zero problems and no damage.
Difficult to price,(The Catalogue just states "RARE")..but based upon
the more common and much smaller dated denominations which catalogue
at between US$650-US$800 each in "VF" we feel that a starting price of
US$2500 is about right for this much larger and excessively rare "EF"
coin.
Subject: Question for seller -- Item #2212206267
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:32:22 PST
Could you please let me know the
weight of this Tanga to 0.01 grams if possible.
Thanks
Question from: kavan
Title of item: Dutch Occupation of Portuguese Ceylon. c,1645
Seller: dragonbrit
Starts: Dec-21-03 10:13:22 PST
Ends: Dec-31-03 10:13:22 PST
Price: Starts at $2,500.00
To view the item, go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2212206267
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: TANGA ...
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:17:34 EST
Hello ...
Thanks for your note and question.
Im getting new batteries for my Grammes Weigh Scale in the morning.
I will e-mail you the exact weight tomorrow morning.
Please look for the e-mail at around 10 am.
MERRY CHRISTMAS FROM ENGLAND.
Alan
From: Kavan Ratnatunga
To: Dragonbrit@aol.com
Subject: Re: TANGA ...
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:40:48 -0500
Hello Alan,
It will be also very useful if you could e-mail me a 600 dpi or higher
resolution scan of the coin which clearly shows the details of the
counter-marks. It is to be expected for a high value coin like this.
Also what Guarantee of Authenticity do you give.
Do you have any provenance on this item.
With best regards and Seasons Greeting
Kavan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: TANGA ...
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:00:30 EST
Hi Kavan ...
I will try to get a closer shot of the counter stamps in the morning
when I can get a daylight picture of the coin.
The authenticity of the coin is 100% without question ...
100% guaranteed ! The coin was recently checked out (and identified for
my client) by the Coin & Medals Department of THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
It doesn't get any better than that !
Like most coins of this type it showed up in a junk box some time ago
at an antiques show. As you might know, England is the "real"
Treasure Island as far as old foreign coins are concerned ...
I never cease to marvel at the stuff that shows up here ...
For me it's been a Lifetimes joy to be in this business ...
England administered & our Royal Navy (and its sailors ) virtually ran
the entire "useful" world until about 1875 ( 66% of the land mass of
planet earth...and 90% of the ocean !!) and brought back here to
this little Island of England just about every strange and wonderful
item you can think of ! This was obviously one of those items.
Please look for my e-mail in the morning ...
Have a good evening...
Christmas Greetings from us all here in London England ...
Alan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: TANGA ( Further details ) Picture of C/S # 1
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:25:49 EST
Hello again Kavan.
I am having difficulty getting my gramme scale to work, but I have
done some clever maths here with a simple beam balance for comparison
with an English half-crown of known weight. I will tell you that + or -
about 2% the Tanga weighs in at almost exactly 14 grammes.
Which is almost exactly half a basic traditional ounce.
Here are also the enlargements of the two counter-stamps 1)
The upper left counter-stamp is here first.
Alan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: TANGA Picture of Counter-stamp #2
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:29:34 EST
I am going to see if I can borrow another computer weighing machine at
jewelers in the town centre.
so I will be back with you late (hopefully) with a spot on accurate
reading of weight.
It will be interesting to see how close I was with my math and logic !
Alan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: TANGA ( The exact weight !)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:32:43 EST
Hi again Kavan ...
I've just managed to get my scale working correctly.
The Tanga weighs in at exactly 12.6 grammes.
I hope the pictures and the weight help you
to be further interested in this rare coin.
As I said the coins is guaranteed 100% genuine.
Good luck in the auction ...
MERRY CHRISTMAS FROM LONDON ENGLAND ...
Alan UK
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: TANGA
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:54:24 EST
Hi Kavan ...
My client got the coin back stapled to a BM compliments slip inside
one of their white paper envelopes with a basic description written on
it . I have no idea who did the ID on the coin but you can take it
from me that its 100% Ok !
The note is dated 12.7 which is 12th July of this year.
I can't get any closer or better resolution on the coin with my camera.
I normally only use it for life sized and "up a bit" pictures in .jpg
mode on the net ...
It does real well at that I think and you can even see the die sinkers
smoothing lines on the field that were present on the original dies
when they were prepared.
I've had over 15 e-mails about this coin so far .
One from a major institution that is about to make me a direct offer
for the coin .I will tell you what I've told them.
My best price on this coin to take if off line and sell privately is
1500 (today that's approx US$2675 ) OR you can bid for the coin on line
starting at US$2500 So If you wish to have it I might I respectfully
suggest that it's a good idea to place an opening bid on it.
If this one does not sell for any reason its going into my pension fund.
Looking forward to your further advice ...
Thanks ...
Alan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: TANGA
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:55:07 EST
I will also TRY and get my camera to do something else a bit larger file ...
I hope I can
Alan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: TANGA ( BIGGEST POSSIBLE FILE )
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:12:41 EST
Hi Kavan ...
Ive just taken a new pic on "four spots" setting on my camera.
The two pics took about 1 minute each to down load so they must be better.
Anyway... here they are ..
hope they are what you need ...
Alan
From: Kavan Ratnatunga
To: Dragonbrit@aol.com
Subject: Re: TANGA ( BIGGEST POSSIBLE FILE )
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:43:48 -0500
Hi Alan,
Thanks. Image is lot better.
I have written to BM for clarification. I will keep in touch.
Best regards
Kavan
From: Dragonbrit@aol.com
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: TANGA
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:44:42 EST
thanks Kavan ...
Alan
From: "Kavan Ratnatunga"
To: "Jan Lingen"
Date: Mon, December 22, 2003 8:45 PM
Subject: C/M TANGA on eBay
Hi Jan,
I would like your comments on C/M tanga
you must have seen on eBay.
In E-mail below he claims to have shown it to BM.
Not sure I trust that. The C/M are badly drawn or non regular.
Seasons Greetings and best regards
Kavan
From lingen@wxs.nl Tue Dec 23 07:00:14 2003
Subject: Re: C/M TANGA on eBay
To: kavan@lakdiva.net
Hi Kavan,
The 4 tanga as well as the c/m's are dubious. I can't imagine that the BM
has declared that the coin, as well as the c/m's, as genuine. The seller
says it is 100% genuine, but I would take of two digits (0% genuine).
Best Wishes,
Jan.
From: Kavan Ratnatunga
To: Joe Cribb
Subject: 4 Tanga double C/M
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:43:48 -0500
Dear Joe Cribb
A seller of a 4 Tanga coin on eBay claims that it was shown
to BM on 2003 July 12th.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2212206267
I am not sure to whom it was shown. I am very curious if it
even was. Does BM keep a record of opinios given. Neither Jan Lingen
or myself feel that BM could have pronounced this Tanga genuine,
Please let me know.
With seasons Greetings and best regards
Kavan Ratnatunga
http://coins.lakdiva.org.lk/
From: Joe Cribb
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:29:14 +0000
Dear Kavan
I tried to look at the picture on ebay, but I couldn't get any
response from the picture site. I don't remeber seeing a genuine one
of these recently, but often see fakles.
Can you copy me the image to see if it rings any bells.
Happy New Year
Joe
Joe Cribb
Keeper of Coins and Medals
British Museum
Great Russell Street
London WC1B 3DG
Direct: 0207 323 8585
Message: 0207 323 8607
Fax: 0207 323 8171
email: jcribb@thebritishmuseum.ac.uk
www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/cm/cmhome.html
From kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu Thu Jan 8 13:29:23 2004
Subject: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M
To: Joe Cribb
Dear Joe,
Thanks for your reply.
I have put the images he sent me and also his
E-mail in http://coins.lakdiva.org.lk/unknown/tanga4.html
He claims it was shown to BM on 12th July 2003.
Does BM keep a record.
Happy New Year to you
Best regards Kavan
From jcribb@british-museum.ac.uk Fri Jan 9 07:29:26 2004
To: kavan@lakdiva.net
Subject: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M
Dear Kavan,
I don't like this coin. We have five examples of the Malacca 4 tanga
made at Goa under Philip III and they are all made to the usual
standards of the Goa mint, with carefully engraved castles on the
shiled and detailed fleur de lis in the crown. The recorded specimens
in this style are a piece of 1633 with date under shield and
denomination under DM, and pieces dated 1634-8 with date under DM and
no denomination.
A Gomes Moedas Portuguesas, Lisbon 1987 p. 379, type F3, no 23.01
illustrates a piece from the same dies as the offered piece and lists
it as 'duvidoso'. I think that translates as dubious. I am inclined to
agree with him that the coin is a modern forgery.
Members of staff of the British Museum cannot accept liability for
opinions they may express on objects submitted for identification or
for information; neither can they give valuations.'The British Museum
Coins and Medals Department staff are experienced specialists in coins
covering a very wide range of series within the subject. Their
opinions are well informed and considered, but still remain opinions
for which they cannot accept liability.
For this reason the British Museum does not provide certificates or
written assurances of authenticity. The Department's first aim in this
context is to identify coins and related objects for the general
public. Staff may also give opinions on whether a coin is likely to be
genuine or false. British Museum staff do not give valuations. Staff
will always make it clear that any opinion we give on identity and
authenticity are intended to inform not to certify. The opinion
service provided by the British Museum is free to the general public.
British Museum staff are always happy to see an object again and
repeat their opinion if there is any reason for doubt.
Best regards
Joe
From kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu Fri Jan 9 13:47:03 2004
To: Dragonbrit@aol.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M]
Hello Alan,
I got a reply from BM attached below. I know you withdrew the coin
from Auction. You said
> If this one does not sell for any reason its going
> into my pension fund.
If you kept it for your pension fund I think you need
to reconsider and return it to your client.
If you sold it please convey BM's opinion below to buyer.
I any case I look forward to a reply from you.
With best regards
Kavan
From Dragonbrit@aol.com Fri Jan 9 13:55:13 2004
To: kavan@lakdiva.net
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M]
Thanks Kavan.
The coin is 100% genuine...but no problem.
The BM are very good but there is no way this is a forgery.
Thanks for your interest .........Alan
From kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu Fri Jan 9 14:13:55 2004
To: Dragonbrit@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M]
Hi Alan,
Do you doubt the opinion of Joe Cribb of BM.
You said on 22 Dec 2003
> The coin was recently checked out (and identified for
> my client) by the Coin & Medals Department of THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
> It doesn't get any better than that !
On what basis do you now say it is 100% genuine.
Do you know more about these coins than BM
best regards Kavan
From Dragonbrit@aol.com Fri Jan 9 14:26:21 2004
To: kavan@lakdiva.net
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M]
I'm happy with the coin ......
There is no doubt that both the coin and the counterstamps are 100% genuine
.Thanks
NETHERLANDS INDIES - RARE COLONIAL SILVER !!
ebay Item number: 2220207533
Bidding has ended for this item
The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer
available for sale.
Starting bid: EUR 150.00
Approximately US $186.26
Ended: Jan-24-04 02:53:33 PST
History: 0 bids
Location: Yorkshire
United Kingdom
Featured Plus! Listing
Seller information
hildebrand_amalric( 369)
Feedback Score: 369 Positive Feedback: 99.7% Member since Mar-11-01 in
United Kingdom Visit this seller's eBay Store!
vigornia numismatics
NETHERLANDS INDIES
This coin was recently found in England. The British Museum has
identified it as being a two tanga piece, struck in the seventeenth
century for use in Portuguese Ceylon, and later overstruck by the
Dutch East India Company for use in the Dutch colonies.
It bears two small countermarks containing the initials VOC.
The grade is very fine.
For more interesting Roman and early English coins and artefacts,
please see my other listings, and please visit my store, Vigornia
Numismatics ! You may bid with confidence - every item I offer is
guaranteed to be original and authentic.
Question from: kavan
Title of item: NETHERLANDS INDIES - RARE COLONIAL SILVER !!
Seller: hildebrand_amalric
Starts: Jan-23-04 06:11:49 PST
Ends: Jan-30-04 06:11:49 PST
Price: Starts at EUR 150.00
To view the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2220207533
I assume this is the same as
ebay Item number: 2212206267 which was withdrawn from Auction,
Images of it shown in http://coins.lakdiva.org.lk/unknown/tanga4.html
Unless it is a Fake from the same mold
Joe Crib Keeper of Coins and Medals, British Museum
said in an E_mail to me
**********************************************************
A Gomes Moedas Portuguesas, Lisbon 1987 p. 379, type F3, no
23.01illustrates a piece from the same dies as the offered piece and
lists it as 'duvidoso'. I think that translates as dubious. I am
inclined to agree with him that the coin is a modern forgery.
Whichever of my colleagues saw the piece last yearmight not have been
asked the question 'is this genuine'in which case they would only have
identified the type.
Best regards Joe
**********************************************************
Please do not shamelessly sell fake coins as real
missrepresenting BM.
Thanks Kavan
http://coins.lakdiva.org.lk/
From Clive@hildebrand-amalric.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jan 24 06:05:10 2004
To:
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
I have received your message.
It appears to be identical to the coin you refer me to, or else so similar
as to call its authenticity into question. I have therefore withdrawn it
from sale.
I bought this coin from a colleague in this country, together with a note
from the British Museum, identifying it. Nowhere on the note do the BM
describe it as false, and I know that if they consider a coin to be wrong,
then they say so. That is their job.
I therefore bought and offered the piece in good faith. While I appreciate
your informing me that the coin is doubtful, please do not use words such
as shameless and misrepresenting to me. I have built a good feedback on
eBay by offering quality and value, and this mistake has occurred through no
fault of mine!
Clive.
From kur Sat Jan 24 12:22:13 2004
To: Clive@hildebrand-amalric.fsnet.co.uk
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
Clive,
Thanks for withdrawing the coin from Auction. Sorry for accusing
you for a mistake you made trusting your source. I agree BM should
write if it is false. I told them so, If you would be kind enough
to send me a scan of the BM note then I can ask Joe Crib of BM to
identify who wrote it up and make sure it does not happen again.
I would also like to confirm if it is the same item or different.
Could you please send me it's weight. I am curious why you call it
a 2 Tanga and the previous Auction called it a 4 Tanga. What does the
BM note say. If the two items are different then it is 100% Proof
it is a fake. I have seen another such matching pair of a different
tanga in Sri Lanka.
I trust you will help in identifying it, and I hope you will get
back what you paid for it. What ever information you can provide
will help identify the source of these fakes and help the hobby
of numismatics which is currently seeing to many fake coins on eBay.
With best regards
Kavan
http://coins.lakdiva.org.lk/
From: "hildebrand-amalric"
To: "Kavan Ratnatunga"
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:54:53 -0000
Hello Kavan,
Thank you for your second message.
I have now had a chance to read the information you sent me.
I rather suspect that the two coins are the same piece. All the flan flaws
and marks correspond.
I had no idea that this item was so rare. The fact that I was able to offer
it at 150 euros makes it certain that my specimen is false. I am therefore
returning it for a refund.
As you request, I am attaching a scan of the BM description. It is not a
very formal note, but I was told that it is the handwriting of the BM
official who identified it, and I had no reason to doubt the word of the
person who sold it to me. I don't know whether it will be legible when you
receive it, but it reads: "Portuguese Ceylon. Double tanga (?) mid C17th
AD. Countermarked by the Dutch".
I described it as a 2 Tanga, on the strength of this. Its weight is a little
over 12 grams.
I hope this is of help.
Best wishes,
Clive.
From kur Sun Jan 25 09:14:07 2004
To: Clive@hildebrand-amalric.fsnet.co.uk, kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
Hi Clive,
The previous seller said as per that page I posted
"BM compliments slip inside one of their white paper envelopes with a
basic description written on it .
The note is dated 12.7 which is 12th July of this year."
Since there is no date and since the weight makes it a fake of a
4-tanga. I suspect yours is not the original BM slip.
IMHO someone decided a very expensive 4-tanga gets to much attention
and decided to market them as less rare double tanga.
> All the flan flaws and marks correspond.
They do on these Fakes since the Flan flaws are simulated.
Does it look like a cast ?
I fear that more of these will appear on eBay and sold to unknowing
collectors. Please try to find out as much as possible from your source.
If it is the same piece surely it can be traced back to the previous
dealer who tried to sell it for $2500/- just one month ago. Else both
can be traced back to someone dumping this crap into the market.
Please help to keep this crap off the market.
Kavan
From kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu Sun Jan 25 09:29:41 2004
To: Dragonbrit@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M]
Hello Alan
Your coin or another identical copy appeared on eBay Auction.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2220207533
That seller stopped Auction when informed. I would very much like
to know if it is the same coin or another. If it is another then
they are both 100% Fake.
Please let me know if you still have your coin.
With best regards
Kavan
From Dragonbrit@aol.com Sun Jan 25 09:34:35 2004
To: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:34:31 EST
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: 4 Tanga double C/M]
Hello again.........
I did further research into this coin and found that it
was a fake .....
I returned the coin to my supplier who I informed that it was wrong .
This "seems" to be the same coin.
Im not aware who this last ebay seller is .......Alan
From Clive@hildebrand-amalric.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jan 25 09:57:07 2004
To: "Kavan Ratnatunga"
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
I do not have the compliment slip, but what I do have is the front of the BM
envelope, with the basic description written on it. That is what I sent to
you.
I did not buy this from "dragonbrit", and do not know how many hands it had
passed through in between. I am annoyed it was dumped on myself, but it was
sold to me, along with a group of other items, by a dealer I have dealt with
for very many years, and I have no reason to think he acted in anything
other than good faith.
In reply to your question, I think this is a struck piece.
I will indeed have a serious word with him, and ask him to help in keeping
stuff like this off the market.
Fakes just get better and better. I am nervous about buying Roman
statuettes now, because one just never knows.
Regards,
Clive.
From kur Sun Jan 25 10:21:12 2004
To: Clive@hildebrand-amalric.fsnet.co.uk
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
Cc: kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Clive,
I just got this as reply just now from Drogonbrit.
I assume it is the same supplier
Kavan
From kur Sun Jan 25 10:56:44 2004
To: Clive@hildebrand-amalric.fsnet.co.uk, kur@lanka.phys.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2220207533
Hi Clive,
I just read on CFDL about
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList/message/6229
I am sure it must not be a good day for you. Please let me know
if it was the same source as the Tanga, we might be able to identify
the true source of this crap.
With best regards
Kavan
